Why The Bias Against Spread WR?

[Da Bomb]

i dunno, i mean it really is going to be hard to debate or prove. i just think someone like moss is far more of a talent that dominates and changes entire games in a much more difficult arena.

i think rice was in many ways a product of an absolutely nfl-landscape-altering offensive attack. thats not an attack on him. the attack wouldnt have changed the entire face of the league forever if it were not for the sheer brilliance of montana-to-rice along with the other offensive players there. but defenses were far less sophisticated then, not ready to face that sort of an offense, and it was an entirely brand new look. it was during those years that some of the best wr years of all time were put up by similar offensive strategies, seasons by some rather forgettable players like herman moore or folks like that. guys that were good, even great, but not GOAT. i think rice was great, even awesome, just not GOAT. rice to me is very much akin to marvin harrison in today's game. he has an amazing rapport with a hall of fame qb, sticks with him for a HOF career with ridiculous numbers, is an outstanding route runner with great hands in a pass offense that gets him the bal early and often, etc. no knock on either of the two, both of them top 10 wrs in nfl history at WORST.

put another way... what if that crazy new spread offense that new england went to last year stuck.. for like 10 years. what if moss kept catching 20+ TDs like that in an unstoppable new attack that took the league 10 years to adjust to, with brady throwing it to him the whole time? at the end of that time, everyone would call him the greatest wr, maybe greatest player, ever. and maybe he would be. or maybe he'd have really awesomely inflated numbers because of the era, the system, the qb, the coaching, and everything else.

we'll never know, its just my own personal opinion.

 

[Sgt John]

One hell of a post Bomb. Damn good argument.

 

[WesDawg]

I'll dumb it down for the uneducated dudes like myself.
If you have good sticky hands, average or better speed, can dodge a tackler every now and then in the open field, run a variety of different level routes, and can stay moderately healthy.. you can be an above average WR in the NFL.
If you have all of the above, but you are also a hard worker in practice and the offseason, accept coaching, have the mental and emotional aptitude to learn new things, can throw a downfield block or act as a realistic decoy when you're not the target, and conduct yourself as a model teammate and citizen, you can approach perennial Pro Bowler status and position yourself as an all-time great.

I believe these observations are true regardless of the offensive system you operated in while in college as a WR.

 

[Mike]

You can take Randy Moss out of a game, you could NEVER take Jerry Rice out of a game. Rice could be the home run threat that Randy Moss is, and on the next offensive drive, he could be the guy that is moving the chains on 3rd and 1, in traffic across the middle (not just once, but multiple times on a drive if needed).

Jerry Rice simply could do anything asked of a receiver, and do it with perfection and class.

As for the bias, this is because some NFL "experts" beat into our head that these receivers are only productive because they are always open against most defenses, because the college defenses can't defend this offense very well.

I say look at the player on an individual basis. Watch how the guy plays, how he runs routes, and how he handles good coverage. If you watched Michael Crabtree in these situations, you would see why there is so much talk about him. This guy snatched down passes in double coverage, ran the sideline like an acrobat on a tight rope, basically did anything you would want a great receiver to do.

Look at the individual, not the system they are in.

 

[Sgt John]

Another fine post in this discussion.

Now that you mention it.....I dont think Moss goes over the middle does he?

I forget what game it was when Rice took that 5 yard screen and turned into a 95 yd TD on MFL. I want to say it was against the Chiefs...

 

[Mike]

Now that you mention it.....I dont think Moss goes over the middle does he?

Moss does, what Moss wants to do, and nothing more. Moss across the middle and moving the chains? Good luck with that. Moss demanding double coverage on routes when he knows he isn't the target? good luck with that.

Granted, Moss can stretch a field as well as, or better, than any receiver in NFL history. When he wants to....

Rice and Moss aren't even in the same league when it comes to being a true "player".

 

[Sgt John]

The thing that sticks out about me with Jerry Rice over some other guys was the fact he was NOT a quitter. Up by 40 or down by 40, he brought his A game.

 

[WesDawg]

First and foremost, Moss is an elite athlete and talent at the WR position.

(Here comes the "but")

He absolutely MUST have another all-star WR (or 2) on the field to fulfill his statistical expectations.

His Minnesota career was augmented by Cris Carter and Jake Reed. Due in large part to those guys and a receiver-friendly system, he was able to dominate single coverage. Without them, he was merely another talented guy.

I won't devote any effort to his stay at Oakland, but he had no QB, no running mates, and his stats spoke for themselves.

Fast FWD to the Patriots. Now he has Welker and a handful of above average guys in the corps (playing the Jake Reed role), a HOF QB, and an offensive system that treats a 5-yd slant like a long handoff, and some added motivation because he knows his window of Super Bowl opportunity is slowly closing.. and he's back to the guy he was in the early 2000's.

I have no respect for uber-talented athletes that have an on/off switch and aren't afraid to use it. Moss is the poster boy for that, in fact I believe he even referred to it at one point during an interview.

Rice came about as close as he could to tarnishing himself before he mercifully retired, but nobody dared ever question his effort.

 

[Da Bomb]

i love how you say to not put stock into what the media portrays for someone like rice or that offense... and then turn right around and give an unbelievably media-biased version of randy moss that shows that you clearly have not followed his career much at all.

did moss pout when he was on awful terrible teams? yeah he sure did. so did jerry rice at the end of his career, and at times when he wasnt getting the looks and attention he thought he deserved. so did marvin harrison when he wasnt getting looks this year and when he wouldnt stick around afterward out of loyalty to a franchise thats given him everything. im not excusing moss, and im not trying to prove hes the greatest of all time either. but ive seen all 3 of these guys play in their primes, and theres no question in my mind which one of them changes an nfl game the most when healthy and on the field. and it has nothing to do with the guys he turns into pro bowlers on the other side of the receiving squad.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

DB: No, if anything he's being very generous about Moss. Week three against the Dolphins? I watched Moss freaking pack it in when the Fins got rolling. There were a couple plays where he had the opportunity to keep the Pats in the game and instead gator armed them. Even Patriots fans took note of this on team forum game threads.