Sports Outlaw Mt Rushmore Series - QB

[cctekguy]

So every one we pick today (Manning, Brady, Brees) will be rendered insignificant when the league goes to 20 games and 36 teams.

...leaving us with a friggin MOUNTAIN with meaningless faces on it.

I think you have to judge these guys against their peers and pick the ones that separated themselves the most. That's why I named Sammy Baugh. Certainly, in a 12 game season with a 90% run philosophy there is no way his numbers could compare to today's QBs but he was SO much better than his peers that he deserves to have his face in stone.

Even though Manning was pretty much unanimous in this poll, he is not THAT much better than his peers (Brady, Brees, Rogers)

 

[Miller]

That is the beauty of these discussions.....there is no criteria! You set up what is important to you in your mind and you compare the different eras the way you see it.

For me, it's not all numbers. It's about setting yourself apart from your generation. Johnny U I feel did that easily.

Sorry, while Johny U was incredible for his day, his stats and accomplishments granted due to changes in the game) don't stand up anymore IMO.

I guess we should set a criteria, but when you leave the door wide open, then you can't miss the fact that the more recent QBs are breaking all records in passing yards, Tds, wins and for Brady championships.

 

[mudloggerone]

Considering the high top shoes and his hair cut he set himself apart from this generation of players as well.

 

[Phicinfan]

So every one we pick today (Manning, Brady, Brees) will be rendered insignificant when the league goes to 20 games and 36 teams.

...leaving us with a friggin MOUNTAIN with meaningless faces on it.

I think you have to judge these guys against their peers and pick the ones that separated themselves the most. That's why I named Sammy Baugh. Certainly, in a 12 game season with a 90% run philosophy there is no way his numbers could compare to today's QBs but he was SO much better than his peers that he deserves to have his face in stone.

Even though Manning was pretty much unanimous in this poll, he is not THAT much better than his peers (Brady, Brees, Rogers)

That isn't what I said. I am a huge fat of Baugh, not as much Unitas. I merely pointed out, that depending on criteria, Unitas isn't in the boat, hell he isn't even in port. I don't feel he "separated" himself as Miller would say enough to warrent being on here. Slinging Sammy though is a different argument.

That being said, that makes me love Brees even more. Small of stature, not NFL typical build for QB, and all he does is break records and win games. And has one Superbowl, which Marino does not.

 

[jjtweeks]

One guy who should not be mentioned is Bradshaw. Take away his rings and he is subpar when it comes to stats. Had a 1 to 1 td/int ratio, career paaser rating of 71, threw for over 3000 only twice and neve over 30 td's. A 51% completion rate to boot. Reminds me of Tebow. Guy can win but is not really good QB. Dan Fouts played in the similar time period and was a much better QB that Bradshaw ever was.
of course this is just my 2 cents which doesnt get ya much

 

[mudloggerone]

I hear you JJ and not to stir the pot but this game is about winning. Just win baby. Records will go away but they can't take those rings from him.

 

[Phicinfan]

I hear you JJ and not to stir the pot but this game is about winning. Just win baby. Records will go away but they can't take those rings from him.

But you are assuming they have those rings due to him, that is not the case. It was due to the Defense, and the running game. I am with JJ on this

 

[Miller]

That being said, that makes me love Brees even more. Small of stature, not NFL typical build for QB, and all he does is break records and win games. And has one Superbowl, which Marino does not.

Yet he is 3rd by most accounts in his own generation (Manning & Brady) and could end up behind someone like Rodgers as well......just don't see what makes him Mount worthy.....

 

[Miller]

But you are assuming they have those rings due to him, that is not the case. It was due to the Defense, and the running game. I am with JJ on this

I agree, if you are looking for a good QB on great teams.....I would take Aikman over Bradshaw.

 

[Miller]

That isn't what I said. I am a huge fat of Baugh, not as much Unitas. I merely pointed out, that depending on criteria, Unitas isn't in the boat, hell he isn't even in port. I don't feel he "separated" himself as Miller would say enough to warrent being on here. Slinging Sammy though is a different argument.

Johnny U didn't seperate himself?

10 X Pro Bowl
5 X First team all Pro
4 X MVP
4 X league champion (1 SB, 3 pre-SB era)

Looks like seperation to me......

I love these types of debates!

 

[Phicinfan]

Yet he is 3rd by most accounts in his own generation (Manning & Brady) and could end up behind someone like Rodgers as well......just don't see what makes him Mount worthy.....

I don't see him as third, especially vs. Manning. Brady, the argument can be made due to championships.

 

[Phicinfan]

Johnny U didn't seperate himself?

10 X Pro Bowl
5 X First team all Pro
4 X MVP
4 X league champion (1 SB, 3 pre-SB era)

Looks like seperation to me......

I love these types of debates!

Okay, look at this with no "window lense" and I agree. Now look at the Qbs he was up against, and I again disagree. Did he really do so much, or the rest didn't do didly.

 

[Miller]

Okay, look at this with no "window lense" and I agree. Now look at the Qbs he was up against, and I again disagree. Did he really do so much, or the rest didn't do didly.

So you claim first there was no separation....when provided facts that blow that claim out of the water you claim other QB's of his era were garbage.....so which is it, no separation or poor era???? Seems to me you are just pulling stuff out if the air now.

Fact is Johnny U played in a run dominant league yet still excelled. Not only was he the best QB of his era, he won 4 MVP's........did players at all positions just do diddly doo as well?

 

[Phicinfan]

So you claim first there was no separation....when provided facts that blow that claim out of the water you claim other QB's of his era were garbage.....so which is it, no separation or poor era???? Seems to me you are just pulling stuff out if the air now.

Fact is Johnny U played in a run dominant league yet still excelled. Not only was he the best QB of his era, he won 4 MVP's........did players at all positions just do diddly doo as well?

Blow the facts out of the water, really?

You just stated it was a run dominated league, he was the only one in an offense that was pass oriented. Do you need to make any more of my points??

 

[Miller]

So in a run dominated league he was routinely identified as the most valuable ...yeah, I'd say that is separation.

But u can have Brees.....nice QB, just not going down as an all time great.

 

[Phicinfan]

Okay, maybe I was wrong on Unitas. Lets take a look at some real stats and compare to someone most feel should be on the list P.Manning, and who I like Brees.

Johnny U - Career games 211, 185 starts, total attempts 5,186. 54.6% career completion rate, most passing yards in one season 3481, most passing TDs in one season - 32, most Ints in one season 24
P.Manning - Career games 240, 240 starts, total attempts 8,452, 65.5% career completion rate, most passing yards in one season 5477(this year), most passing Tds in one season - 52(again this year), most Ints in one season 28(rookie year)
D.Brees - Career games 186, 185 starts, total attempts 6799. 65.9% career completion rate, most passing yards in one season 5476, most passing TDs in one season 46, most Ints in one season 22

Now, we can say unequivocally that Unitas has a better MVP, Probowl and Playoff record than P.Manning. But it would take a full more season to match Tds and Yards in a season for career numbers to be close.

So maybe he does belong, but in much less time, I think you can see so does Brees. I would vote Manning off and add Unitas

 

[Miller]

Another point over looked in this discussion of era's is how much better would Unitas have been in his WR's could have ran free like they do today?

And let's talk Brees as well, how does his timing rhythm offense fare if his WR's were allowed to be mugged all the way down the field like they did in the 60's and 70's?

 

[cctekguy]

I really don't think we want to go down the "Ruth vs Aaron" road with this.

We all know that the game is vastly different today than it was yesteryear. It's sad, in a way, for just this reason.

I guess it boils down to honor. Do you honor heroes or do you honor stats.

Both have their place, and frankly, the game would have gotten stale if the old records weren't broken regardless of the reasons.

But to spit in the face of the legends that framed the game because their "numbers" don't compare is a travesty, IMO.

It's like saying Barrack Obama is a better president than Abraham Lincoln because he got more votes.




I'll leave you with that thought.

 

[jjtweeks]

I kinda see what your saying but heroes are formed from opinions and stats are,well, facts. Ruth would not be one of the best home run hitters if he hit 2 a year. You do have to take,like you and others stated, into effect the time period thay played in and with what surrounding cast. I stick by my opinion on Bradshaw that he was average at best. What limited knowledge i have of Baugh and Unitas ,for example, leads me to believe that they were some of the best that ever played. My hero growing up was Marino and I was amazed at his ability more than any other. The only that comes close to pure QB talent to me is Brees but there are many others things i took into consideration on this post. I think we all have different criteria on what constitutes greatness and it's great to see how everyone views this. There is no right or wrong in opinions, unless your married. I was also hard on Montana because the niners were so good back then and he over shadowed my hero often.

 

[Arctic Dawgs]

I hear you JJ and not to stir the pot but this game is about winning. Just win baby. Records will go away but they can't take those rings from him.

sounds like you are nominating Aikman with Bradshaw and Brady. None of them make the grade in my opinion