I hope Tebow does it again!
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jjtweeks
Moderator
It might be tilted a little to the left with an eye twitching but yes anything is possible. Do you think that phrase "Any Given Sunday" came from the movie. No, that phrase is there because history has shown so. Would i bet on it, heck no but there is always a chance. Heck ya. I would have never guessed that the Rams would have beaten the Saints or Baltimore get shut down by the Jags or that the Broncos would have came back today, but guess what it all happened anyway.
You have been telling us for a month (with a straight face?) how bad Tebow and the Broncos are and the broncos are 7-1 with him starting.
You have been telling us for a month (with a straight face?) how bad Tebow and the Broncos are and the broncos are 7-1 with him starting.
JackG1980
New Member
Take a chill pill... The Broncos and Tebow are giving us great games to see. I do not know anyone who thought that the Broncos would be in first place after there horrible start. Tebow seems like a good guy and its great to see him succeed in the NFL after everyone said he cant.
gizzil
Well-Known Member
"The Broncos and Tebow are giving us great games to see."
again did you watch this game? how bout that awesome 18-15 game against the dolphins.... or the 17-10 rout of the chiefs... 16-13 over chargers? that game against the jets made me want to puke... these were all horrible, boring games.
"I do not know anyone who thought that the Broncos would be in first place after there horrible start"
and? theyre in the worst division in football. theyre 1 game ahead of the raiders. 2 ahead of the chargers. i wouldnt discount them, they always end strong... the broncos remaining 3 games? Pats at home, @Buffalo, vs. KC. It does set up decently for them to make the playoffs. if they get lucky... again... maybe get one playoff victory. i dont care what given sunday it is.
"You have been telling us for a month (with a straight face?) how bad Tebow and the Broncos are and the broncos are 7-1 with him starting."
so wins and a first place finish make them good somehow?? were the seahawks good last year? where in the bylaws does it say a team that wins or ends up in first has to be good? they got their **** pushed in against the lions. with tebow. got handed some games by some really bad teams.
"Tebow seems like a good guy and its great to see him succeed in the NFL after everyone said he cant."
what are you talking about? if success is a few ugly wins and winning an awful division, i guess you could say succeed - i dont care what kind of guy he is, how does that change whether the broncos or he is any good? id rather watch a bunch of criminals play good football than watch a buncha tebows play this garbage any day.
again did you watch this game? how bout that awesome 18-15 game against the dolphins.... or the 17-10 rout of the chiefs... 16-13 over chargers? that game against the jets made me want to puke... these were all horrible, boring games.
"I do not know anyone who thought that the Broncos would be in first place after there horrible start"
and? theyre in the worst division in football. theyre 1 game ahead of the raiders. 2 ahead of the chargers. i wouldnt discount them, they always end strong... the broncos remaining 3 games? Pats at home, @Buffalo, vs. KC. It does set up decently for them to make the playoffs. if they get lucky... again... maybe get one playoff victory. i dont care what given sunday it is.
"You have been telling us for a month (with a straight face?) how bad Tebow and the Broncos are and the broncos are 7-1 with him starting."
so wins and a first place finish make them good somehow?? were the seahawks good last year? where in the bylaws does it say a team that wins or ends up in first has to be good? they got their **** pushed in against the lions. with tebow. got handed some games by some really bad teams.
"Tebow seems like a good guy and its great to see him succeed in the NFL after everyone said he cant."
what are you talking about? if success is a few ugly wins and winning an awful division, i guess you could say succeed - i dont care what kind of guy he is, how does that change whether the broncos or he is any good? id rather watch a bunch of criminals play good football than watch a buncha tebows play this garbage any day.
I love a good defensive game and as a Bear fan I'd have thought you would feel the same way. It's been the Bears biggest claim to fame for most of my life. The last time I checked all that matters is winning. Just win baby! Too bad the Bears didn't do that and I suspect that's the reason for your sour grapes. That or Tebow's Christian faith. Either way dude the Broncos won, the Bears lost, and I for one am happy about it.
gizzil
Well-Known Member
the bears are awful... they did lose to a bad broncos team. aaaannnd your point is? a win is a win? does that make them good? youre not making a point. unless that is it, in which case i fully disagree. the ravens won the superbowl with dilfer... was dilfer good? the dolphins went 17-0 with good ol bob griese - would you say griese was good? tebow might end up a good quarterback... the broncos may end up bein a good team with tebow. not this year though on either. both need a lot more work. winning doesnt make you a good player. plenty of yankee pitchers are perfect examples of this. winning doesnt make you a good team even. the san francisco giants of 2010 were bad. and won the world series. your any given sunday point is well taken. only i would say that's why the broncos are winning. ugly. lucky. a bad team can win. any given sunday
gizzil
Well-Known Member
in fact - if you want numbers - here's some interesting ones
47.1 - tebow's lifetime completion percentage
68.3 - tebow's passer rating today
85.9 - tebow's career passer rating
19.3 - broncos ppg under tebow
basically, he's just not turning the ball over. i remember when orton had a similar year with the bears... becoming starter mid season and ended up going 10-4 or something... is orton good now? was he then? was he that year even? NOOOO. just cuz a guy wins, opr you like him, doesnt make him good. Nobody loves dilfer more than me. he wasnt good. jim mcmahon won bears super bowl. not good. hate peyton manning, and his 5-head. the dude is awesome. tom brady - nobody hates him more than me. crazy awesome. ben rapistberger - total dirt bag - maybe the best improv qb all time
47.1 - tebow's lifetime completion percentage
68.3 - tebow's passer rating today
85.9 - tebow's career passer rating
19.3 - broncos ppg under tebow
basically, he's just not turning the ball over. i remember when orton had a similar year with the bears... becoming starter mid season and ended up going 10-4 or something... is orton good now? was he then? was he that year even? NOOOO. just cuz a guy wins, opr you like him, doesnt make him good. Nobody loves dilfer more than me. he wasnt good. jim mcmahon won bears super bowl. not good. hate peyton manning, and his 5-head. the dude is awesome. tom brady - nobody hates him more than me. crazy awesome. ben rapistberger - total dirt bag - maybe the best improv qb all time
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cctekguy
Staff member
"or" doesn't have a "p" in it, BTW.
:biggrin:
I think this argument is a matter of perspective. Giz is right on with his Tebow stats and I agree with him that Tebow is not a "good" QB, by definition. I also agree that Denver is not a "good" team.
I love the comparison to McMahon. He was not a good QB and the Bears were not a good team, but you, of all people, should remember the love and adoration that fans had for him. Are you gonna sit there and tell me that you didn't LOVE Jim McMahon?...That you didn't LOVE watching the Bears beat teams they had no business beating? That you didn't LOVE the 1985 Bears season?
You are seeing the same type of emotion with Tebow and the Broncs. Do you remember hating those people that hated the '85 Bears? Remember arguing with those people that said McMahon sucks and the Bears could never win it all?
You are one of those people now, Giz.
Relax and let the Tebowites have their day too, and rest assured that the Bronco's will NOT end the season like the '85 Bears. They are a hall of fame running back short.
:biggrin:
I think this argument is a matter of perspective. Giz is right on with his Tebow stats and I agree with him that Tebow is not a "good" QB, by definition. I also agree that Denver is not a "good" team.
I love the comparison to McMahon. He was not a good QB and the Bears were not a good team, but you, of all people, should remember the love and adoration that fans had for him. Are you gonna sit there and tell me that you didn't LOVE Jim McMahon?...That you didn't LOVE watching the Bears beat teams they had no business beating? That you didn't LOVE the 1985 Bears season?
You are seeing the same type of emotion with Tebow and the Broncs. Do you remember hating those people that hated the '85 Bears? Remember arguing with those people that said McMahon sucks and the Bears could never win it all?
You are one of those people now, Giz.
Relax and let the Tebowites have their day too, and rest assured that the Bronco's will NOT end the season like the '85 Bears. They are a hall of fame running back short.
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FTR I never once said Tebow or the Broncos were good, nope, I only said it's been fun watching this not good enough team with a non NFL QB win games in the most unlikely of ways. It's been a fun thing to watch. While looking up stats you might want to post Tebow's 4th quarter stats, they paint a much different picture. Angels in the Outfield indeed.:wink:
jjtweeks
Moderator
Yea we are not really talking about Tebow's stats here but if any one of us wanted we could dig up just as many favorable stats as unfavorable ones. For me personally the stat i like is the record. As Sheen would say "winning". I am rooting for the Broncos for what Tebow brought to them, not Tebow himself. Though i always root for the Dolphins first. I also root for guys like Dalton and Yates who I see as hard working players.
Remote Controller
Well-Known Member
A few more stats that were left out for some reason
7-1
3-0 in overtime
5-0 in last 5 road games (3 of those in his division)
6 4th qtr.come from behind wins --- better than Elway's first 11 games
Completion % - better than Elway first 11 games
win loss record -- better than Elways
Int's - less than Elways
Td's - more than Elway
2nd best winning % in the NFL this season behind the perfect Rodgers
.....and the kicker is, he gives his teamates all of the credit for making him look better than he is.
7-1
3-0 in overtime
5-0 in last 5 road games (3 of those in his division)
6 4th qtr.come from behind wins --- better than Elway's first 11 games
Completion % - better than Elway first 11 games
win loss record -- better than Elways
Int's - less than Elways
Td's - more than Elway
2nd best winning % in the NFL this season behind the perfect Rodgers
.....and the kicker is, he gives his teamates all of the credit for making him look better than he is.
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gizzil
Well-Known Member
the best stat is 1ST 11 GAMES. I saw the stats showing nobody has had quite as good a first 11 games. did you happen to notice anything bout the guys on the list? NONE OF THEM WERE GOOD NFL QUARTERBACKS. if youre comparing tebow to rodgers, i know why none of this is sinking in. for some reason the blinders have come on and no amount of rational argument can change your mind. you watch these games and must be fooling yourself. rodgers put up what 46 pts on the raiders yesterday? TEBOW BEAT THEM 16 13. not even a contest. in an era with soooo many good quarterbacks, why try and make one out to be that clearly isnt? I honestly dont believe you are comparing to rodgers or elway, but youre proving that the tebowites are extremely misguided in having done so, so thank you for that. You can watch aaron rodgers, peyton manning, tom brady, ben rapist, eli manning, hell stafford made the broncos look stupid. IF youre correct about the completion % through 11 games, (is this starts? games? 1st year? 2nd?) then guess what, elway didnt start off too well either. he worked and became good, and eventually great. so i already said who knows maybe tebow WILL BE good at some point. Maybe he will be great (that's a stretch and a half) but HE ISNT NOW. The best part is, you act like my hatred for tebow is what drives these arguments... i dont have any particular feeling about tebow. in fact, as stated, i can think of alotta guys i hate a lot more than tebow. but i can tell you that they are good, and in some cases great quarterbacks. what bothers me is the apparent complete disregard for cogent thought and the inability to recognize what you are seeing. if you like the guy - you should be celebrating that he and the broncos have been doing so well when they are apparently not very good. a magical season thusfar sure - but youre letting yourself get caught up in what essentially is a statistical aberration.
"Twenty-two quarterbacks started their career with a 10-start stretch that saw their team get outscored by a total between two and 42 points, or within a 20-point margin of Tebow's Broncos. In their next 10 starts, they went a combined 93-105 (46.9 percent). In fact, it's hard to win games consistently, period. Thirteen quarterbacks over the time frame started their careers 7-3, like Tebow did, regardless of what their point differential was. In their next 10 games, they went a combined 63-67 (48.4 percent). So, in other words, the fact that Tebow's started his career winning seven of his first 10 starts shouldn't tell us very much about what he's likely to do going forward, but the fact that he's done so while being outscored isn't exactly a great sign."
"Again, there are not many players to compare Tebow to. Only two players since 1990 have gone 6-1 or better in close games amidst their first 10 starts at quarterback: Delhomme (like Tebow, 6-1) and Chad Henne (6-0!). In their next 10 starts, Delhomme and Henne were 6-6 in games decided by a touchdown or less. That jibes with our research that a team's record in those close games from year to year is basically random and will revolve around the mean (a .500 record)."
"Winning close games to start your career is fun and profitable, but it doesn't indicate anything about your ability to do so going forward. Gus Johnson's awareness of this rule is one of the reasons he stopped doing NFL games after an incredible 2010 season"
"Tebow is better than career interception rate leader Aaron Rodgers, who's going to win this year's MVP. Has anybody played like that during his NFL infancy? Well, a few players have. If you hate Tim Tebow, you might want to turn away right now, because a bunch of those players turned out to be really great quarterbacks. Six players had interception rates better than Tebow's during their first 10 starts: David Garrard (0.7 percent), Michael Vick (0.8 percent), Damon Huard (1.1 percent, although he finished his first 10 starts eight years after being drafted), Chad Pennington (1.4 percent), Mark Brunell (1.6 percent), and Philip Rivers (1.7 percent)." wheres garrard? pennington? huard? brunell? now?
"The bad news for Tebow is that a player's completion percentage — unlike his interception rate — tends to stay pretty consistent as he gets more NFL experience. A player's completion percentage during his first 10 starts explains about 25 percent of the variance between the completion percentages of quarterbacks in their next 10 starts. Of those quarterbacks, the only ones to really ever gain some level of accuracy to justify a pro career are Bledsoe, Collins, and Manning, each of whom had significantly better credentials as a pro-style pocket passer coming out of school than Tebow. Players as inaccurate as Tebow wash out of the league at an extraordinarily fast rate."
"Twenty-two quarterbacks started their career with a 10-start stretch that saw their team get outscored by a total between two and 42 points, or within a 20-point margin of Tebow's Broncos. In their next 10 starts, they went a combined 93-105 (46.9 percent). In fact, it's hard to win games consistently, period. Thirteen quarterbacks over the time frame started their careers 7-3, like Tebow did, regardless of what their point differential was. In their next 10 games, they went a combined 63-67 (48.4 percent). So, in other words, the fact that Tebow's started his career winning seven of his first 10 starts shouldn't tell us very much about what he's likely to do going forward, but the fact that he's done so while being outscored isn't exactly a great sign."
"Again, there are not many players to compare Tebow to. Only two players since 1990 have gone 6-1 or better in close games amidst their first 10 starts at quarterback: Delhomme (like Tebow, 6-1) and Chad Henne (6-0!). In their next 10 starts, Delhomme and Henne were 6-6 in games decided by a touchdown or less. That jibes with our research that a team's record in those close games from year to year is basically random and will revolve around the mean (a .500 record)."
"Winning close games to start your career is fun and profitable, but it doesn't indicate anything about your ability to do so going forward. Gus Johnson's awareness of this rule is one of the reasons he stopped doing NFL games after an incredible 2010 season"
"Tebow is better than career interception rate leader Aaron Rodgers, who's going to win this year's MVP. Has anybody played like that during his NFL infancy? Well, a few players have. If you hate Tim Tebow, you might want to turn away right now, because a bunch of those players turned out to be really great quarterbacks. Six players had interception rates better than Tebow's during their first 10 starts: David Garrard (0.7 percent), Michael Vick (0.8 percent), Damon Huard (1.1 percent, although he finished his first 10 starts eight years after being drafted), Chad Pennington (1.4 percent), Mark Brunell (1.6 percent), and Philip Rivers (1.7 percent)." wheres garrard? pennington? huard? brunell? now?
"The bad news for Tebow is that a player's completion percentage — unlike his interception rate — tends to stay pretty consistent as he gets more NFL experience. A player's completion percentage during his first 10 starts explains about 25 percent of the variance between the completion percentages of quarterbacks in their next 10 starts. Of those quarterbacks, the only ones to really ever gain some level of accuracy to justify a pro career are Bledsoe, Collins, and Manning, each of whom had significantly better credentials as a pro-style pocket passer coming out of school than Tebow. Players as inaccurate as Tebow wash out of the league at an extraordinarily fast rate."
jjtweeks
Moderator
Nice essay!!. You prove my point that we can all manipulate our research to show what stats are important. My hero Dan Marino had one of the lowest completions rates of all QB,s. I am gonna make this my last post on this thread. My argument with you has been that the Broncos are bad which they are not. Tebow sucks which he does not and I don't remember who on here ever said he was great which he is not. You say watching his games wanna make you puke. That sounds like a personal problem which I'd rather not get into. You are the only person I have ever heard that thinks 4th quarter comebacks by a "terrible team and bad QB" are boring. No timeouts and 2 minutes left and your opponent has the lead and the ball and you comeback to win that game in overtime. Buy me the DVD because I wanna see that stuff again.
Stop comparing Tebow and let him be Tebow.
And also you can't do research on the effects of a mans will and heart on a team which is why I KNOW there won't be an essay on that
Stop comparing Tebow and let him be Tebow.
And also you can't do research on the effects of a mans will and heart on a team which is why I KNOW there won't be an essay on that
gruntbusters
hehehe...heheheh..hehe...
I hate Tebow
Remote Controller
Well-Known Member
hater
gizzil
Well-Known Member
"My argument with you has been that the Broncos are bad which they are not. Tebow sucks which he does not"
nice rebut... however, making blanket statements with no sound argument or evidence is easy. you can say anything you want then.... that is not an argument, it's just saying whatever you feel
"You prove my point that we can all manipulate our research to show what stats are important."
what research and stats have you used? the wins? wins and being good are not causal to one another. ive proved that numerous times already. i dont have cancer. never have. therefore, chicken wings, ipa, and burritos prevent cancer. NO! has no one taken a logic or debate class? just because "A" is so, at the same time as "B", is NOT proof that A causes B, vice versa, or that they are related in any way.
"And also you can't do research on the effects of a mans will and heart on a team which is why I KNOW there won't be an essay on that"
no, there wont be... is this your research and stats? for real? your argument is his "will" and "heart" can not be measured???? and what? this allows you to compare him to aaron rodgers? are you kidding?
nobody answers with arguments... it's all "his heart!" "well, he's winning and youre just a hater" what? i know is when i watch the broncos, im watching a bad team. tell yourself whatever you want.. watch that garbage if it floats your boat. but dont tell me that the broncos are good. they simply arent. dont tell me tebow and rodgers are on the same level. they arent. dont tell me tebow is good, cuz there are sooo many average QBs BETTER than he is NOW. he is the first to tell you himself that his teammates had more to do with the win. his teammates made him look better. all true. kudos tim couldnta said it better... hang on the guys jock if you must - thats on you kid. but just because you wanna fool yourself doesnt mean you can fool me
nice rebut... however, making blanket statements with no sound argument or evidence is easy. you can say anything you want then.... that is not an argument, it's just saying whatever you feel
"You prove my point that we can all manipulate our research to show what stats are important."
what research and stats have you used? the wins? wins and being good are not causal to one another. ive proved that numerous times already. i dont have cancer. never have. therefore, chicken wings, ipa, and burritos prevent cancer. NO! has no one taken a logic or debate class? just because "A" is so, at the same time as "B", is NOT proof that A causes B, vice versa, or that they are related in any way.
"And also you can't do research on the effects of a mans will and heart on a team which is why I KNOW there won't be an essay on that"
no, there wont be... is this your research and stats? for real? your argument is his "will" and "heart" can not be measured???? and what? this allows you to compare him to aaron rodgers? are you kidding?
nobody answers with arguments... it's all "his heart!" "well, he's winning and youre just a hater" what? i know is when i watch the broncos, im watching a bad team. tell yourself whatever you want.. watch that garbage if it floats your boat. but dont tell me that the broncos are good. they simply arent. dont tell me tebow and rodgers are on the same level. they arent. dont tell me tebow is good, cuz there are sooo many average QBs BETTER than he is NOW. he is the first to tell you himself that his teammates had more to do with the win. his teammates made him look better. all true. kudos tim couldnta said it better... hang on the guys jock if you must - thats on you kid. but just because you wanna fool yourself doesnt mean you can fool me
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Remote Controller
Well-Known Member
I hope Tebow does it again!!
I echo your thoughts RC but next week they won't be playing a "bad" team like they were this week.:wink:
cctekguy
Staff member
Totally enjoying your posts Giz! Well researched, factually sound and beatifully written! Posts like these take a lot of your time and I'm proud to be a beneficiary of your efforts. Thanks!
I really wish you would consider doing a piece on the '85 Bears, How you felt as a fan during the "impossible" season. How old were you then? (or were you old enough to care). That was a team driven by those intangibles you mentioned above. Heart, Spirit, Desire... It wasn't a team of great players (except Payton). As the team dispersed, most went on to become nobodies. A few maintained thier notariety but, like Joe Namath, probably wouldn't have made it with out that miracle year.
I'm guessing that maybe you aren't old enough to remember but if you are I'll bet you didn't spend a lot of time worrying about McMahon's completion percentage or their point totals vs intra-division foes. You were riding a wave of logic defying victories and spitting in the faces of the experts.
Not arguing here, Giz, I just want to hear the "fact master" let go for a minute and relive a fantasy.
9
I really wish you would consider doing a piece on the '85 Bears, How you felt as a fan during the "impossible" season. How old were you then? (or were you old enough to care). That was a team driven by those intangibles you mentioned above. Heart, Spirit, Desire... It wasn't a team of great players (except Payton). As the team dispersed, most went on to become nobodies. A few maintained thier notariety but, like Joe Namath, probably wouldn't have made it with out that miracle year.
I'm guessing that maybe you aren't old enough to remember but if you are I'll bet you didn't spend a lot of time worrying about McMahon's completion percentage or their point totals vs intra-division foes. You were riding a wave of logic defying victories and spitting in the faces of the experts.
Not arguing here, Giz, I just want to hear the "fact master" let go for a minute and relive a fantasy.
9
We're not here to cause no trouble, we just wanna do the super bowl shuffle.
McMahon "mooning" the news helicopter in New Orleans as it flew over their practice before the big game.
Refrig catching the TD pass when everyone expected him to lumber in as usual.
A defense that defied logic. A streak for us bettors against the spread they may have still never been topped.
'85 Bears, one hail of a fun team to watch.
McMahon "mooning" the news helicopter in New Orleans as it flew over their practice before the big game.
Refrig catching the TD pass when everyone expected him to lumber in as usual.
A defense that defied logic. A streak for us bettors against the spread they may have still never been topped.
'85 Bears, one hail of a fun team to watch.