1st 2010 NFL Mock Discussion Thread

[WesDawg]

Harrison was the 2008 DPOY. Apparently someone forgot to tell him that he was 20 lbs underweight.
You should probably go to NFL.com or some team sites and start looking at LB sizes overall. I don't know where these 260 lb. guys are that you seem to think have infiltrated the league, but regardless of the scheme, 240-245 seems to be about average from what I've seen. The 3 guys I consider to be the 3 best young overall LB's period right now in the league are Willis, Beason, and Ruud. None of which are over 245, and I'm quite certain any team would love to have them regardless of the scheme.
This is why I commonly refer to the Eyeball Test when I'm doing draft research, more so than measurables. The landscape is littered with "genetic freaks" who look the part but just can't play, and also guys who've excelled while not running real fast, jumping real high, or fitting a set of height-weight parameters.
The poster child for this theory would probably have to be Urlacher, who was a big Safety (think Taylor Mays) his whole life until he got drafted. The bottom line is, if you can play, you can play.
What good is a roster full of bodybuilders if your team can't break .500?

 

[Miller]

Make all the excuses you want for Benn, I'm just going to point to Demaryius Thomas in reply. IMO, his college production exactly matches what he's going to do in the pros unless he lucks out in going to a team with an elite QB; he might have one good season, but for the most part he's going to be overhyped, overmatched, and underproducing. Here's my rankings:

1) Dez Bryant
2) Golden Tate
3) Demaryius Thomas
4)Mardy Gilyard
5) Brandon LaFell

If I went deeper than 5 I might find a place on the list for him, but he's so underwhelming as a receiver that I'm not sure.

How often did you watch him? Seriously?? You say he's going to be over-matched and under produce....how do you produce with Juice williams throwing the ball in the dirt or into the stands??

His physical tools are FAR from underwhelming. You get him the ball in places he can do something with it, and you get him some solid coaching and he has the tools to succeed..

Benn has the highest upside of any WR in the draft outside of Bryant IMO. There is defiantly risk there, but I would roll the dice on him before some of the mediocre prospects you named and settle for a guy who does not have the capability of being anything more than a #3 option in the pro's.

There are 3 WR's that IMO standout in this class.

Bryant
Benn
Gilyard

Outside of them, I am not too excited in any of them as a legitimate starter at the next level.

 

[Miller]

Weatherspoon weighed in at 241, not 247. And you'll note that of those three linebackers, Mayo's the only one with any recent success and that's largely because Big Mama Vince is there covering his ass. In a 3-4, the linebackers absolutely HAVE to be 255+ and for OLB the ideal is around 265, if not 270.

240 pound linebackers worked in the Giants' 3-4 heyday because the lineman were smaller, but nowadays when the linemen are regularly 320+, it's just not going to work anymore.

Lay the pipe down son....255+?? As the others have comments, tell that to Pittsburgh!! Another team you may want to notify is the Packers, who had one of the better defenses in the league and not one of their starting LB's are listed over 250!

Scott and Harris did pretty damn good in the middle of the Jets 3-4 this year and come in at 240 & 245!!

Both Ravens middle backers are list 250 or less

3 of the 4 starting LB's in the Cowboys 3/4 are listed at 255 or less, the two Middle backers are under 250.

the 2 middle backers for the Phins are just listed at 245 and 250....

Dummervil was the sack leader this year and did pretty damn good at 248 on the outside in a 3-4. Only one of their 4 starters is listed over 250.

Both of the Chargers middle backers are listed UNDER 240!

So if this is a MUST, someone might want to notify the NFL b/c IMO, this is just complete bullshit....

 

[DearbornDolfan]

Channing Crowder played at 255-260 this season and Akin Ayodele played about five pounds lighter. Jason Taylor is listed as 255, but he was quoted as saying during spring training that he was hitting the weights so hard he was at 270 and they asked him to come down to 265. Joey Porter said he was playing at 255-260.

Listed weights are bullshit, they're basically the combine weigh in results which no team bothers to update because it doesn't matter. But if you insist on a list of the rookies coming in that are seriously considered as top 3-4 prospects right out of the gate as proof, I can do that for you.

ILB:
Rolando McClain - 258 pounds
Brandon Spikes - 258 pounds
Micah Johnson - 256 pounds
Eric Norwood - 255 pounds (he's often listed as an OLB, but every time I read a scouting report with his strengths listed, it screams 3-4 ILB to me)

OLB (includes DE converts):
Brandon Graham - 263 pounds
Jason Pierre-Paul - 265 pounds
Jerry Hughes - 257 pounds
Koa Misi - 256 pounds
Brandon Lang - 256 pounds

You see a trend, there? The only reason 3-4 teams accept 240 pound linebackers is because they're switching from a 4-3 and that's the best they have and/or they're just so damned hard to find. It's like Parcells, the Godfather of the 34, says, there are only so many men on the planet who are big enough, fast enough, athletic enough, and smart enough to play backer in a 3-4 and the team that can fill their roster with them is going to be dominate. Everybody else who wants to run a 3-4 and fails at this has to make do with schemes to maximize what they have.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

How often did you watch him? Seriously?? You say he's going to be over-matched and under produce....how do you produce with Juice williams throwing the ball in the dirt or into the stands??

Hate to break this to you, but all three of Benn's years with Illinois Juice was his QB. And it's not like you can claim Juice was all that bad, he smashed on your Buckeyes his Sophomore year and seems to have had far more good games than bad.

The fact of the matter is that Benn fell flat on his face his Junior season and given the continuity he's enjoyed his entire time with Illinois, that screams to me it was Benn's fault. Like I said, unless he lucks out by landing on a team with an elite QB, he's not going to amount to anything special.

Given that you can include Benn, but exclude Golden Tate (consensus #2 WR in this class) and Demaryius Thomas (consensus Top 5 WR in this class) tells me all I need to know.

 

[Miller]

Hate to break this to you, but all three of Benn's years with Illinois Juice was his QB. And it's not like you can claim Juice was all that bad, he smashed on your Buckeyes his Sophomore year and seems to have had far more good games than bad.

The fact of the matter is that Benn fell flat on his face his Junior season and given the continuity he's enjoyed his entire time with Illinois, that screams to me it was Benn's fault. Like I said, unless he lucks out by landing on a team with an elite QB, he's not going to amount to anything special.

Given that you can include Benn, but exclude Golden Tate (consensus #2 WR in this class) and Demaryius Thomas (consensus Top 5 WR in this class) tells me all I need to know.

Yep, your observations tell me all I need to know...you didn't watch him at all did you!

Juice Williams on all accounts regressed from his Sophomore year when he showed some potential. Telling me that Juice was not all that bad is completely laughable! He was just simply crap! You talk about him smashing the Buckeyes 3 years ago....what about him being destroyed and shut out last year by the Buckeyes....just a tad more relevent don't you think? That Illinois passing game was useless this season and Benn did not have a shot....anyone who watched any games this season could not make the comment that is screams it was Benn's fault. You have to have a chance to produce in order to actually produce. Now I'm not going to completely let him off the hook, it does bring up some question marks, but I'm not going to toss a kid who has the potential to be a true number one under the bus either.

And now to Golden Tate.....you can have him, he's a 3 in the NFL at best and not worth a #1 pick or anything close to it. Not real big, not real fast, not real quick.....just mediocre and should have stayed another season. Not close to being NFL ready IMO.

As far as Dem Thomas goes, for one, he's not a consensus top 5 just b/c you think he is one....he is borderline top 5 prospect that most see in the 5-8 range. But since I think for myself and not just reiterate what consensus ranking say I will tell you I think he is too slow to do in the NFL what he did in the ACC for one season. I see a receiver who will get lost at the next level and does not have the raw physical skills to seperate himself from the pack. I don't see a WR who has the potential to be a #2 in the NFL, let alone a #1. As I stated before, I only see 3 with that potential.

 

[Miller]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEeqFPJM6fI"]YouTube- Arrelious Benn Junior Season Highlights[/ame]

Watch the first play......that ball was horrible and Benn still reacted, made a great adjustment, and made the play. With a good QB he would be been hit in stride and in the endzone. With a horrible one, you get to see how good he is to have still been able to make the play.

Big, strong, can make a catch in traffic and tough to get down once he has the ball.....

You may want to watch that sounds like it might be the first you have seen of him.

 

[efactor]

:xpopcorn:

Finally getting some passionate debate. Good stuff.

The point that I agree with the most in all this is that measureables are all well and good, but the NFL record book is full of guys who didn't run the fastest 40s, throw the best deep ball or have the ideal size. Do they have enough physical talent to succeed while posessing insticts and intelligence for the game as well as the love of the game to play through injury and maintain conditioning over the next 8-10 years?

Anyway.................

 

[Remote Controller]

Very happy to grab a starter from day 1 here. He is one of the best special team guys in this draft, meaning not only will he make the squad, he will play. Great tackler, with the speed to cover man to man. Very good read on him on my selection post. Had my eye on another O-lineman
but with injuries to Al Harris, and the Db's getting older in Green Bay, this too was a dire need. He will add another dimension to defending the run with his tackling ability, while have the speed to cover man, and the brains to dupe QB's in zone.

 

[Remote Controller]

Sergio Kindle, , NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com for Atlanta Rd 1


Trent Williams, , NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com for GreenBay Rd 1


Devin McCourty, , NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com for Green Bay Rd 2

 

[MNJHNSN]

Hate to break this to you, but all three of Benn's years with Illinois Juice was his QB. And it's not like you can claim Juice was all that bad, he smashed on your Buckeyes his Sophomore year and seems to have had far more good games than bad.

The fact of the matter is that Benn fell flat on his face his Junior season and given the continuity he's enjoyed his entire time with Illinois, that screams to me it was Benn's fault. Like I said, unless he lucks out by landing on a team with an elite QB, he's not going to amount to anything special.

Given that you can include Benn, but exclude Golden Tate (consensus #2 WR in this class) and Demaryius Thomas (consensus Top 5 WR in this class) tells me all I need to know.

The consensus of who? THOMAS a top 5 WR? Clearly you are a Georgia Tech Fan or believe what you read WAY too much! Everthing I read has BENN rated higher AND going higher in the draft than THOMAS. Four sources - Draft Debacled and Walter Football, Draft Countdown, FF Toolbox...... Where is THOMAS listed as a Top 5?

 

[WesDawg]

Channing Crowder played at 255-260 this season and Akin Ayodele played about five pounds lighter. Jason Taylor is listed as 255, but he was quoted as saying during spring training that he was hitting the weights so hard he was at 270 and they asked him to come down to 265. Joey Porter said he was playing at 255-260.

Listed weights are bullshit, they're basically the combine weigh in results which no team bothers to update because it doesn't matter. But if you insist on a list of the rookies coming in that are seriously considered as top 3-4 prospects right out of the gate as proof, I can do that for you.

ILB:
Rolando McClain - 258 pounds
Brandon Spikes - 258 pounds
Micah Johnson - 256 pounds
Eric Norwood - 255 pounds (he's often listed as an OLB, but every time I read a scouting report with his strengths listed, it screams 3-4 ILB to me)

OLB (includes DE converts):
Brandon Graham - 263 pounds
Jason Pierre-Paul - 265 pounds
Jerry Hughes - 257 pounds
Koa Misi - 256 pounds
Brandon Lang - 256 pounds

You see a trend, there? The only reason 3-4 teams accept 240 pound linebackers is because they're switching from a 4-3 and that's the best they have and/or they're just so damned hard to find. It's like Parcells, the Godfather of the 34, says, there are only so many men on the planet who are big enough, fast enough, athletic enough, and smart enough to play backer in a 3-4 and the team that can fill their roster with them is going to be dominate. Everybody else who wants to run a 3-4 and fails at this has to make do with schemes to maximize what they have.

-You say listed weights are bullsh*t, then go on to cite listed weights?
-Your weight/size argument is centering around guys who are projected rather than current players who are clearly producing.
-Green Bay, the Jets, and Pittsburgh were all top-5 defenses in terms of YPG allowed, Miami was 22nd. Maybe they're the ones playing with mismatched personnel? Jason Taylor played primarily as a rush 4-3 DE his whole career until his 2nd go-around with Miami, after they already changed their base scheme.
-Homer vs. Homer statement here: I'll concede Parcells is one of the first to start seriously tinkering with the 3-4 concept, but if there is a "Godfather" of the modern-day version, it's Dick LeBeau.

I'll give you one more example of a guy who was mostly out of place and should've taken the Urlacher route. Roy Williams of the Cowboys/Bengals. He would've fit in perfectly and probably excelled as a headhunting MLB in a 3-4 front due to his difficulty in deep pass coverage throughout his career. He's roughly the same size as Daryl Washington, who seems to have fired up this string of the debate.

 

[GlennsPatriots]

Don't get me wrong DD, I would have drafted a beefier LB for the Pats if there were one worthy. Big AND athletic is pretty rare ... and the Pats already have a surplus of Big Slow LB's.

 

[Sgt John]

Baltimore - Dominique Franks, CB, Oklahoma

Baltimore addressed getting younger in the front 7 in the 1st round. Looking at the defensive side, the Ravens are in need of some youth in the secondary, particularly at CB. The team has good vets, but no one who really stands out. Dominique Foxworth is a good player, but after Samari Rolle went PUP last season, the team had to rely on backups. Rolle likely wont be back for 2010, and Franks gives them a good option as well as the potential to make more turnovers. The team was 8th in pass defense, but no Raven grabbed more than 4 picks.

WR is still a need, but I didnt see what I would be looking for at this point.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

Jason Taylor played primarily as a rush 4-3 DE his whole career until his 2nd go-around with Miami, after they already changed their base scheme.

That's not the case at all. Taylor was only a pure 4-3 end under Jimmy Johnson, he started playing some 3-4 WOLB when Pornstache took over and was almost exclusively a 3-4 WOLB under Dick Satan, again the same under The-****tard-Who-Shan't-Be-Named, and purely a 3-4 SOLB under the present regime.

Mind, the latter was a problem, but it was dictated because Taylor was the best run-stopping OLB the Fins have. Because Porter looks to be talking his way out of Miami, I imagine Taylor will be back on the weak side next season platooning with Cameron Wake. That's largely why I picked Hughes in the first (although it would've been Graham if we had started after the Senior Bowl), because the Fins absolutely need a Jack who can rush the passer on a consistent basis.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

Big AND athletic is pretty rare ... and the Pats already have a surplus of Big Slow LB's.

That's been my point all along. Mind, Weatherspoon is going to have to put on 10-15 pounds (probably closer to 10, because he's going to end up being the Mike) and given the fact that presently he looks like a strong safety he probably has the frame for it, but the fact remains he's going to lose a tick in his speed and quickness doing so. Mind, he's such an athletic freak I don't think it'll hurt him too much.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

The Cards need a QB simply because Warner has retired, so I figure why not draft somebody who's going to push Leinart for the starting spot?

 

[DearbornDolfan]

The consensus of who? THOMAS a top 5 WR? Clearly you are a Georgia Tech Fan or believe what you read WAY too much! Everthing I read has BENN rated higher AND going higher in the draft than THOMAS. Four sources - Draft Debacled and Walter Football, Draft Countdown, FF Toolbox...... Where is THOMAS listed as a Top 5?

Walter Football? The same Walter Football that has Damien Williams as the #2 receiver on their WR prospect list? The same Walter Football that fails to understand that Bills Parcells would've never taken Jake Long in the first round (he doesn't believe in drafting linemen in the 1st round) or taken Pat White in the second (he wouldn't have draft Pat White at all), yet has the Fins passing on Dez Bryant in their mock because Bill Parcells wouldn't do it. Walter Football as a collective are ignorant fools and Walter himself is the King Fool.

I have major problems with other similar free services. The fact is they're hobby sites and they don't have paychecks/professional reputations riding on being accurate. The only "free" site I moderately trust is NFLdraftscout, largely because they do this stuff for a living and the public is given free access because CBS foots the bill. They actually break down the players and seem to factor in production at the college level first and foremost, rather than the turbulent winds of internet opinion. And guess what the guys who have paychecks and professional reputations riding on their work say? Arrelious Benn is their #7 ranked receiver, two spots behind Demaryius Thomas.

It's like Bill Walsh used to say; if the player did it in high school and he did it in college, then he's going to do it in the pros. Arrelious Benn didn't and there's no legitimate excuse, such as a season-ending injury, for why he didn't. Dez Bryant, Golden Tate, Brandon LaFell, Damien Williams, and Demaryius Thomas are in the top five because not only did they produce, their production increased year to year.

 

[WesDawg]

It's like Bill Walsh used to say; if the player did it in high school and he did it in college, then he's going to do it in the pros.

Hence, my "Eyeball Test" comment. Now you're talkin'!!

There's a guy who I won't mention yet that I have as my own #5 WR and I don't think has been mentioned at all yet, but let's just say he was extremely productive last season in a major conference after Maclin left. And he did it with a much lesser quality QB than Chase Daniel.

 

[bodey24]

I took Jordan Shipley for the Cowboys. I think he has the potential to be a great slot WR. Possibly another Wes Welker. He can also return punts for the Cowboys. I make have taken him a bit to early I don't know where they are projecting him to go I just didn't think he would make it to my next pick in round 3. This will give the Cowboys another weapon instead of having Patrick Crayton.